Just keep moving - building inclusive pathways in open source with Dr. Kari L. Jordan

amanda casari: Hi! My name is amanda casari. My pronouns are she/her. Today is Friday, June 27, 2025, and I’m speaking with Dr. Kari L. Jordan. I’m recording this conversation for Open Source Stories from where I live in Vermont. It’s a beautiful summer day. And as I was telling Kari earlier, my dog is very defensive today and decides she just wants to be a baked potato, which is also a good environment to have, and sometimes I feel like that is me as well. Kari, can you please introduce yourself?

Dr. Kari L. Jordan: Yes. And you didn’t tell the listeners that I suggested we all take a page out of that book.

amanda: Yes. That is a feeling and a moment.

[laughter]

Kari: Thank you so much for having me. I am Kari Jordan. I’m the Executive Director for The Carpentries, a nonprofit that teaches coding and data science skills worldwide using open source tools. Thank you so much for having me.

amanda: We’re so excited to have you. And I’ll totally admit. I saw your name come up, and I had a fangirl bit of a moment. So I was very excited.

Kari: You did not.

amanda: I did! Of course, I did. This is one of my favorite things about getting to work in open source and open science, is you just get to collide with such lovely, brilliant people. And I feel like it’s just, you know, we go through so many of our days, and we just don’t always get the chance to get that energy back.

Creating an atmosphere where people can feel included

amanda: So I’m really curious. Where do you go to find positive or encouraging energy these days?

Kari: Honestly, a Zumba class. I’m a Zumba instructor in addition to, you know, leading inclusive communities and teaching data coding skills. When I’m not doing that, I am in a Zumba class dancing, merengue, salsa. That’s where I find it.

amanda: I love this. Do you have any go to Zumba songs that you choose when you’re trying to really bring the day?

Kari: It’s usually a merengue song. I’ve been studying a little bit of Spanish, and it’s usually telling you to move it, move it, move it, over and over again. Just move it. Move it. No matter what. No matter how fast you can go, how slow you’re going, just move it. Just move it. Just keep moving. And I feel like that’s what I’m doing in this moment. Just keep moving. Just keep moving. [laughter]

amanda: I love that because I also love how that’s, like, music plus being with a whole group of people plus using your body in a positive direction. That just sounds so lovely to me.

Kari: You gotta try it. You gotta try it.

amanda: So I’ll admit, I’ve tried it. It might be more of a level of intensity than I - so one of my best friends is also a Zumba instructor in New York as one of the things that she does as a passion. I can’t keep up with her. I know that, and that’s fine because she is a beast. I adore her. So I also recognize when you say that, I’m like, oh, that, that is a level of energy. It’s a lot. I love it, though. I absolutely love it. So that’s kind of an outlet. Do you feel like you get to bring that into the work that you do when you’re starting to do work in open science and in open source and data science?

Kari: I do actually, because to me, it’s about energy as well. It’s about positivity. It’s about shared values. And it’s about creating an atmosphere where individuals can feel included. And a lot of what I actually - it’s so funny that we’re drawing this parallel, because I’ve been teaching Zumba longer than I’ve been in an open source community. But a lot of what I do to create a positive environment in a Zumba class, I do in my work with The Carpentries. And I do, you know, when I speak and when I present, it’s about seeing everyone in the room as contributors.

Because I’m in the front of the room, it doesn’t mean that I am better or more knowledgeable or, you know, that I have more to bring, necessarily, than anyone in the room. It’s about creating an atmosphere where everyone in the room can contribute and learn from one another. And I just, I love that about open source in general.

Sharing the open source perspective

amanda: How do you explain to folks when you’re first introducing them or when you wanna bring them in?

Kari: So when they’re coming together, if they don’t know what open source is - Oh my goodness. This has definitely evolved over time. I’ll be honest with you. Because when I first started with The Carpentries back in 2016, I had never heard of open source. And I had a PhD - [laughs] I still have a PhD.

But I had no concept of working in the open, of tools and systems and perspectives being created for the most people to use. I come from an academic environment where, you know, everything was behind a paywall. You didn’t necessarily share anything with anyone, you know, unless they were in your research team. And so when I came into the open source space, one, I was amazed. But two, I was - can I say pissed on here?

amanda: Absolutely. Yes.

Kari: Oh, okay. I was like, I don’t know if I can say pissed. [laughs]

amanda: You can.

[laughter]

Kari: I was pissed. I said to myself, people have been collaborating and sharing their data and sharing their methods and progressing science. I was working in engineering, but people have been doing this the whole time, and I struggled through it. Sharing their code, I was using I think SPSS at the time, and I was pissed. I said, why did I not know about this? And so now when I introduce open source, I tell my origin story, honestly. I talk about how it was a struggle for me when I was doing research. And looking back on it, I didn’t understand why I was struggling so much. But now I know it’s because I didn’t have the perspective.

I didn’t have open source perspectives. I didn’t have the tools that were powerful, that were reproducible. I didn’t have these things. And so I was always struggling and depending on my adviser to help me through. Whereas I could have been a part of a larger community where I could have asked more questions of other people. And frankly, I could have gotten better. My research would have been more powerful, and I would have gotten it done faster, honestly. It wouldn’t have taken me so long. So I talk about my origin story.

amanda: So for the field you study, for the field that you have your PhD in, you feel that that field was really focused on specific tool sets and methods and ways of collaborating? Has that changed at all? Because it sounds like it’s been almost a decade, really, since this was happening for you for The Carpentries, longer than that since you were getting your PhD. Do you feel like that’s changed for that field of study, for your field of study? Or is that still a barrier, do you think, for those students and for those researchers?

Kari: It has changed. So I defended in 2013. And my PhD is in engineering education. So sort of this blend, of technology and really education. And so I’m still very connected to those programs because at the time, there weren’t many engineering education PhD programs. Now there are plenty, and the field is really growing. So I’m still connected. But now they are having conversations about how to use Python to analyze their data and how to use our packages for qualitative research. So a lot of my research, it was sort of mixed methods, I worked on interventions to improve the sense of belonging for students of color in STEM. So it was a lot of research using focus groups, some surveys, one on one interviews, and things like that. And so I had to analyze themes that were coming out.

Now I see more conversations- actually, when I just did a keynote at Python US, I saw a few PhD students who were doing their doing the same sort of work, but they were learning how to use Python. And I said, okay. This is what you know, this is nice. I love to see it. It’s changing, but we still have some of the same - I’ll call them legacy faculty, that kinda don’t know about open source and about this movement. And so those graduate students are kinda driving the goal to get involved with open source.

Science for the benefit of humanity

amanda: Yeah. What’s your best hope for when you think of open source and open science of what it can really do and unlock if it was something that was not just a possibility, but was really embraced by the scientific community and by the software community?

Kari: amanda, that is such a good question. That’s such a great question. I think scientific advancement, it takes more individuals working in it who will benefit from it. For so long, the dominant research culture has been very extractive. You know? We’re gonna go into this community. We’re going to take a bunch of samples or ask them a bunch of questions. And then we’re gonna go into this silo, and we’re gonna come up with the answers and maybe give it back to the community. Maybe not. And so hope for me is communities understanding how to work with data, how to work with code, and they are solving problems for themselves. They have access to education and know how to collect their own data and store it and make inferences from it.

And then also it’s about recognition because, especially in academia, there’s still so much emphasis placed on research and grants and all of the things that go into tenure and promotion. Right? And a lot of what happens in open source isn’t necessarily praised, and it won’t get you tenure. As important as it may be, and as impactful as it may be, you will not get tenure because you wrote an R package and everyone’s using it. You know, it’s just not there. I don’t know how to solve that problem. It’s annoying. I don’t know how to solve that problem.

amanda: Oh, if you knew how to solve that, I’ll trust that it would already be solved.

Kari: True. [laughter]

amanda: I hear what you’re saying because I think I’ve talked about this with folks for years now as well. So I think it’s a real challenge, especially for faculty who are just starting their career regardless of your experience or your age. But when you’re starting in your career and you’re focusing on methods and new methods, there’s no space for, it seems, either software or data as a first class research product. Even though they are the fundamentals of what allows everything else to occur, they’re not treated that way.

Kari: Yes!

amanda: And I agree with you too that it does strike me as something that has been- it does become something that people get because it’s their methods, and it’s the part of the fundamental work they do, is collecting that information. It’s felt like it is something that is proprietary and personal. Even though the outcomes of it are not for their benefit because that’s not what science is for. Science is for the benefit of humanity.

Kari: That’s right. I don’t know if everyone believes that. I don’t know if everyone truly believes that science is for the benefit of humanity. And I- I just realized that. I just realized that as you said it. I mean, science is everywhere. Science is everywhere in every industry. And we are all working toward improving life for us now, but also for those to come.

But I don’t know if that is the motivation, if that is everyone’s motivation. I think that some people are motivated by prestige and, you know, whatever else. I don’t know. Those aren’t my values. [laughs] So I don’t really empathize with that. But I don’t know if everyone truly believes what they are doing is for everyone. It’s for the public. It’s for humanity. And that might be one of the challenges with attracting contributors, open source contributors. It’s the whole, you know, what’s in it for me? Why should I spend time on this if it’s not for me?

amanda: Yeah. No. That’s such an excellent call out.

Kari: Because I don’t realize sometimes the things like, well, ‘This is what I believe. Obviously, this is a norm’, which is not true. But, also, I love how you’re saying too that even if it is a belief, it doesn’t mean it can’t be exploited or used to exploit others.

amanda: Where I can see where this ties into as well, and that even that mindset can tie into, well, this is to benefit humanity. This is to benefit you, so you should let me do whatever I want. As opposed to, this is for the benefit of humanity, we should all be invited. We should all be involved. We should all have systems that we are able to be curious and ask questions and discover and share. So for the work that you focus on now and for the things that you’ve done, I’m curious if, despite all the places where we are disappointed these days, I’m curious, Kari, what has surprised you in open science recently.

You’ve discovered that folks in your area are now finally using the ability and the tooling to allow them to share with each other present with each other and share their ideas, present their work. Where else would you think that, here’s some areas that can be surprising, but also we’re inviting and opening and creating that environment where you want to allow for that space or where that is positively changing things?

Kari: I think especially now that funding is in this flux, I guess, is a word I’ll use -

amanda: That is a very kind word for this current moment.

Kari: I have to make up for saying pissed earlier. [laughter]

But people are realizing that the ways that we collaborated before, which a lot of times are in person meetings, but now we have to be even more creative. There are so many convenings for open source. There’s so many conferences and convenings all around the world, and these convenings cost a lot of money. We’re talking, you know, hotels, audio/visual, food and beverage, and then travel, and not everyone can afford to come on their own. So it’s a lot of money.

I think that we’re realizing not everyone is privileged enough to afford to go to a convening. It’s time away from your family. It costs us. Right?

So we’re realizing that we have to figure out ways to collaborate and share what we’re working on beyond going to that conference and presenting on it. And it’s kind of a little sad in one regard because these convenings are so powerful. Like, right before we started the podcast, we were talking about how in open source, you get to meet so many great people and, you know, and these in person meetings are just a fantastic way to fan out with, you know, people who you’ve been following their work or using using the tools that they’re creating.

But I think we’re going to see a shift in how these meetings are constructed, how they’re planned. We may see less of them, and we’re gonna have to keep the momentum up. We’re gonna have to keep the momentum going somehow. That’s kind of what I’ve been thinking about lately. What are some other other creative ways for people to showcase their work that doesn’t necessarily require going to an in person event?

I hope I’m wrong.

I hope I’m wrong because I really enjoy the opportunity to learn, to learn about other people’s work because sometimes I wouldn’t know about some of these new packages or, you know, new open source tools that people are using. If I didn’t go to a meeting, I would have no idea.

amanda: I do know what you mean, because I think that getting that chance to have that human connection and learn and discover things. I also love it. I know not everybody does. I know the idea of showing up in a room with a bunch of people you don’t know or even people you do care about who are very loud, can be overwhelming, and that might not be everybody’s jam.

Also, for those of us who do find energy and connection from that, I hope we get to keep some aspect of that. I do wanna make sure- I’m realizing I have so much to talk to you about in so little time. But I hear you also striking kinda on a core sustainability and how things are now, the blueprint for the past might not be helpful for us.

Succession planning in open source

amanda: I’m curious what other sustainability concerns are in your mind lately or that you’re thinking about.

Kari: Lately, I’ve really been thinking about succession planning, I really have, for community driven roles in open source. Many of the open source projects and tools are managed by volunteers. Yeah. There, you know, there are many that work in industry, and so they get paid to work on these tools and things like that. But for many projects, I mean, these are volunteers or maybe it’s fifteen percent of their role in academia or something like that.

What does that mean for the future of that particular open source tool and those who may create new tools in the future? If we have to depend on the one person who knows how to do the thing, you know, we risk- it’s a huge risk. And so we have to start talking more about what succession planning looks like, what onboarding new new individuals to the community looks like, and also what offboarding looks like. I don’t know if I wanna be a maintainer indefinitely. You know?

amanda: I do know. [laughs]

Kari: I don’t think we should advocate for that. I just don’t. I don’t. I think we have to- there has to be pathways that you can enter through the community in all these different ways. You can start off by helping improve documentation.It doesn’t even have to necessarily be a technical thing. You can start off by helping me improve my documentation, because I’m not good at that. Right?

There are all these different pathways that you can enter through and learn and grow and contribute, and there are always leaders coming from all directions. And I think we have to take succession planning seriously. We really, really do. If open source will continue to be sustainable, whether we’re talking about open open source software, whether we’re talking about hardware, like, all of it. We have to talk about and be serious about succession planning.

amanda: Yeah. I love that because it also, I think, emphasizes- it allows people- we talk a lot about barriers, all the time for communities and people. And I feel like not addressing the exit plan, not addressing the opportunity, that can be a little overwhelming, right, to think of, everyone’s depending on me or someone’s depending on me. So even calling it a dependency, you’re kind of like, this is a lot for a person.

Kari: And it doesn’t have to be. One of the best stories I heard was from Jay Miller who, I think he founded, Black Python devs, and he leads that group. And he talked about being at a convening where they just asked, hey. If you could just, you know, stand here and pass out these forms. Or if you can help us move these chairs, that would be great. And that person just felt like, I’m helping. I’m helping. You know, I’m helping with something. And it encouraged them, ‘Well, maybe I should go check out this session to learn about this’. And you continue to evolve. You continue to evolve in the ecosystem.

You may start out hosting for The Carpentries, for example. You may start out hosting a community discussion about succession planning. Maybe that’s what you’re good at. Maybe you haven’t even started using R yet. But now you enjoy the community. You’re surprised by how welcoming and how inclusive it is. And everyone’s talking about how they got so much done using Git or using the Unix command line. Maybe I should take that lesson. And then you take the lesson, and now you’re improving the way you work. And now you wanna learn how to teach it. Right? So it’s an evolution. It’s an evolution, but there are pathways. There has to be pathways if we’re going to sustain the excitement.

amanda: I have so many questions, but I realized I have to wrap it up. So I wanted to make sure, I wanna make sure -

Kari: We need a part two! [laughs]

The power of grassroots to move your work forward

amanda: I will take as many parts as we can get, I will admit that. This is fantastic. Do you have any parting thoughts that you would wanna make sure that folks know about whether that’s challenges, whether it’s potential, whether it’s people that you wanna highlight or spotlight. Is there anything else that we wanna make sure that we share before we close out today?

Kari: Yes. There was a time when funders had no idea open source existed, and there were champions who were creating new things, moving this work forward with no money. I’m not saying that we’re in that time. I’m saying that we do not need to depend on the priorities of funders in order to move the work forward. There are a lot of examples of grassroots organizations, grassroots efforts in open source, and we may have to get back to that. I don’t want listeners to be distracted or fearful because of what’s happening in the world.

Focus on what you can do. Focus on the things that you can do to support and to raise awareness about open source rather than the things you can’t do. It’s a distraction. It’s happening, and we have to deal with it, but it’s also a distraction because the work is going to continue to get done. We have to- we’re gonna be creative. We have creative minds. We have brilliant minds in open source. Do not be distracted. Continue to move your work forward. Because what we said earlier, science needs it. We need it. It’s for the benefit of humanity. So don’t be distracted. Continue to move your work forward.

amanda: Thank you. I so deeply appreciate and love that. Thank you again, Dr. Kari L Jordan, for talking with us today. I hope you all have a wonderful day, and we’ll go ahead and call it!

Kari: Thank you!

The story was facilitated by amanda casari and edited by Tracy Teal.